tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7447544468792389936.post4503808214497452261..comments2024-02-26T21:18:23.165-08:00Comments on CHIMERAS: Hail to the Bonobos!Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09922888671399516573noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7447544468792389936.post-35061622047408802232012-06-14T12:58:01.627-07:002012-06-14T12:58:01.627-07:00I am a game theorist, coming at it from economics,...I am a game theorist, coming at it from economics, and I'm interested in all disciplines to which it might be applied. One important lesson is that appropriate strategies depend greatly upon the games you play.<br /><br />In biology, the choice of genes depends greatly upon the environment from which the critter lives. For some environments, selfish genes lead to selfish, aggressive individuals, but others lead to cooperative, peaceful individuals. <br /><br />Usually cooperating with individuals with whom you interact with repeatedly, but being wary and possibly aggressive to strangers are good strategies. Living in an area much easier to defend than to take over (think New Zealand or Hopi Indians) can lead to a pretty peaceful existence, living in one where defense has no advantage can lead to violence (think Poland or Sioux).<br /><br />Is there any difference in environments for chimps and bonobos that would lead to their differences?gametheorymannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7447544468792389936.post-83307218764147470932012-05-30T11:29:20.962-07:002012-05-30T11:29:20.962-07:00Excellent point, thank you!Excellent point, thank you!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09922888671399516573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7447544468792389936.post-51212150263855551822012-05-30T09:32:13.425-07:002012-05-30T09:32:13.425-07:00It seems to me this whole debate rests upon a fals...It seems to me this whole debate rests upon a false dichotomy - we are either naturally nasty or naturally nice.<br /><br />Anyone who has watched a toddler play can tell you: we're both. We have natural impulses to be kind, generous, empathic and loving. And we have natural impulses to be aggressive, competitive, domineering and cruel. Which is expressed depends on the situation.<br /><br />Nature versus nurture is, likewise, a false dichotomy. All behavior is a product of both. The question we should be asking is, what environments tend to produce more good people, and how can we make our environment more like those ones?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7447544468792389936.post-37558107405985807412012-05-25T20:30:32.775-07:002012-05-25T20:30:32.775-07:00Yes, I agree -- scarcity of resources will definit...Yes, I agree -- scarcity of resources will definitely affect everything. Thanks, Hollis!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09922888671399516573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7447544468792389936.post-23873835045594524402012-05-25T20:17:53.542-07:002012-05-25T20:17:53.542-07:00Really interesting! It seems to me that humans ar...Really interesting! It seems to me that humans are strongly social, so much so that our "family" (vs. enemies) has been getting larger and larger with time. We have gone from being warring small tribes where warfare was a means to high status and recognition, to a huge tribe integrated by trade. I've seen such changes even during my lifetime -- our (USA) Cold War enemies are now major trading partners. So it is hard to convince me that humans are basically agressive -- something is pushing us to be empathetic to an ever-widening sphere of beings ... even other species. But a friend once pointed out that affluence is a factor -- if we run out of food, water, fuel and other resources, our good nature may change for the worse.Hollishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10788942181934895493noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7447544468792389936.post-83626145401967263352012-05-25T06:51:26.069-07:002012-05-25T06:51:26.069-07:00thanks, I'll check it out!thanks, I'll check it out!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09922888671399516573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7447544468792389936.post-81511051600084853342012-05-25T06:47:49.274-07:002012-05-25T06:47:49.274-07:00If you're into Frans de Waal, I think you'...If you're into Frans de Waal, I think you'll really enjoy his book "The Ape and the Sushi Master" http://www.amazon.com/The-Ape-Sushi-Master-Primatologist/dp/0465041752Firsthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05301983060982959781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7447544468792389936.post-88795667879692006492012-05-24T06:40:32.319-07:002012-05-24T06:40:32.319-07:00thanks for your comment, Nicholas.
I don't kn...thanks for your comment, Nicholas.<br /><br />I don't know what we're born to be, but I think this paper points at both archeological and phylogenetic evidence that seems to indicate that cooperation is "rewarded" through evolution, rather than competition (as it had been previously thought). I don't know how self-conscious the bonobos are when they show empathy, and yet they have developed this wonderful, peaceful system of dealing with conflicts.<br /><br />this doesn't mean that humans are not aggressive; we are and wars and genocides have happened throughout history.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09922888671399516573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7447544468792389936.post-38961921912717350282012-05-23T23:13:22.297-07:002012-05-23T23:13:22.297-07:00I think we're born to be aggressive, something...I think we're born to be aggressive, something has to die so that something else can live. <br /><br />To co-operate is more like an after thought/ result of intelligence and self consciousness. <br /><br />We're still young and primitive as a species, another million years, human race will look at us and glad they weren't born at our age... (If we have not already wipe ourselves off the face of the earth)<br /><br />Well, I'm no scientist, just my own thought.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15408245445927764470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7447544468792389936.post-2716302996297067092012-05-23T18:39:15.213-07:002012-05-23T18:39:15.213-07:00Thanks so much for your comment, John!
Here'...Thanks so much for your comment, John! <br /><br />Here's my personal interpretation of this paper and my take-home message: I think the point is that there's no prehistorical or genetic evidence that our "nature" is per se aggressive. There has been a lot of debate on whether we are "geared" toward competition, and by that I mean that it is somehow encoded in our genes. I think de Waal's point is that it's not and that any aggressive behavior we've witnessed through history had to be some kind of acquired behavior and is certainly NOT justifiable through some kind of "selective" pressure, if you will.<br /><br />Again, this is my personal interpretation.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09922888671399516573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7447544468792389936.post-63350824868384554472012-05-23T17:55:46.580-07:002012-05-23T17:55:46.580-07:00Interesting development. Thanks for sharing. Thi...Interesting development. Thanks for sharing. This seems to contradict a very interesting analysis I watched on PBS just last night ("Civilization: the West and the rest" By Niall-Ferguson). NF is 'only' a historian, but he does have some valid observations, IMO, among them the fact that the West won over other civilizations (China, the Incas, The Ottomans)due to higher competitiveness (aggression) among other factors. Which does seem more Chimp-like. Hmmm. Interesting, again. We'll have to see if further research favors the Bonobo proximity... Then we'll have to find an alternativbe explanation for our agressivenessJohn Christopherhttp://www.jchristophergalleries.comnoreply@blogger.com